Help for a Newbie

[don wiggins]

My name is Don Wiggins and I live in Central Oklahoma. I have lurked on this forum for a while but actually joined this morning. I have owned/trained/hunted with Labrador Retrievers for the past 25 + years but have recently become interested in the versatile breeds and specifically the DK. I would like to learn as much as I can prior to obtaining a new pup/dog. I am very interested in training and testing as much or more so than hunting. And though I feel I am fairly accomplished in obedience, land and water retriever as well as force fetch training, I wouldn't have a clue where to start on pointing or tracking. I would like to attend a testing or training event and watch and ask questions. Are there any active NADKC members from the Oklahoma area on here?
I know that in this electronic age of emails & spam filters sometimes things have a way of getting lost. But, I have sent emails to every Elected Board Officer on the NADKC contact page as well as the Mid South Regional Director and have not gotten a response. For all I know they have all responded and it just didn't get back through to me.
If there is anyone on here that can recommend books to read, videos to watch or people to talk to, I would be grateful.
Thank you,
Don

[Manny]

Don Hi, welcome on board

We have few members just over the border form you, I know they’re active members with breeding and training, Jorg is a good member and I’m sure he will help you to fine the right puppy for your needs or answer any questions you had have, we have some members near you but I don't know how active they're.

Here is his information taken from the NADKC breeders webpage

Kennel: von Kings Crossing

Breeder: Jorg Kaltenegger

Location: Kansas

Email: jpkalt@dishmail.net

Phone: 724-987-3107

Good luck
Manny

[George D]

Don
Welcome to the DK world!

If you're not averse to ecollars I would recommend two videos to train pointing dogs. The Perfect Start and the Perfect Finish by Jon Hann. Both DVD's are very well done and available on line.

Good Luck

[don wiggins]

Thanks George D.
Funny thing. As I was writing my first post and telling what I could do I almost said "Collar Conditioning" but I didn't know if that was accepted in the DK world or not so I didn't mention it.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Don

[don wiggins]

George D, what part of Alabama are you from. My Grandmother lives in Boaz, between Gadsden & Huntsville.
Don

[George D]

George D, what part of Alabama are you from. My Grandmother lives in Boaz, between Gadsden & Huntsville.
Don

Don
I'm in south AL between Mobile and Montgomery.

[pixie bee]

Hi Don,welcome to the board,I hope you decide on a DK, there are good breeders here in the states and I'm certain you will find the best dog for your needs.

A hugh difference you will find is that retreivers are more sight oriented and pointers more nose oriented. I believe that retriever trainers who are focused on testing don't hunt a dog until certain skills are consistant - in the pointing dog world - especially the DK where innate ability is much desired - the recommendation is to encourage,enhance and build natural ability,drive,desire and cooperation first then work on trained skills. I believe that if certain abilities are not brought out in a DK early on - such as nose,range drive,cooperation - we may not see all that the dog could have have been.
I do train the sit,down,come commands early on - by 4 months old the pup knows what these mean - and I keep it light.
Balance in training is the key and it is essential to know what sequence of innate skills a pointing dog needs to work towards.
I am testiment (well,my dogs are) that loads of innate ability,drive,desire and cooperation will get a dog to pass the breed tests (and score well).

You sound like someone who would enjoy the VGP test. It is a nice combo of innate ability and trained skills.

Francine
PS- shopping for a puppy is as much fun as training one. Enjoy the hunt for a puppy and post pictures when you find the little monster.

[don wiggins]

Okay, I have now spoken to a couple of people either by phone or email and have come to the conclusion that for the support of a club I should hook up with the local NAVHDA club. There is a local active group that has regular training days and for guidance there are members within a couple of miles of my house. Is the NAVHDA training book and video that you get when you sign up for the club a good program for a beginner? And, is the testing similar enough that using the NAVHDA training material would allow me to transition easily into the DK tests?
Thank you,
Don

[recon1]

Hello, The first book for training versatile hunting dogs in North America was the NAVHDA "green book". It is based on testing methods originating from Germany. I have a signed copy from one of the co-authors, Dr. Ed Bailey while attending one of his seminars and he also has a couple articles on the NADKC web site (library section) if you are a member. NAVHDA tests evaluate field, marsh and obedience categories but does not cover the forest category. NAVHDA also has available judging and handlers clinics led by Senior NAVHDA judges. These clinics explain in detail what is being scored and how. This is a big help in developing your training program. There are more than a few NADKC members I recognise that are also NAVHDA senior judges.

Dick Aronica

[Lisa]

NAVHDA also does not cover fur work. There are differences between NAVHDA and the NADKC/DKV/JGHV tests and you will want to familiarize yourself with those differences so that you are not blindsided either way.

Lisa

[recon1]

Furred game can be used in the retrieve by drag if provided by the handler in the UTP and UT NAVHDA tests.

Dick

[admin]

Furred game can be used in the retrieve by drag if provided by the handler in the UTP and UT NAVHDA tests.

Dick


Yes it does, but I never see one to do furred game drag in Navhda

[pixie bee]

NAVHDA feather drag is about the same as the DKV feather drag. NAVHDA does not have a fur catagory, if you supply fur it will only be dragged as far as the feather drag. In DKV the fur drag is more challenging.
The NAVHDA NA test is more challenging overall than the DKV derby - I would do the NA test if possible. The NAVHDA UT is a finished dog test which can be done at any age, the DKV solms is still a natural ability test - making it a more challenging test of trainer and dog - this test has age limitations.
As mentioned, there are differences between the two systems, if your goal is DKV, understanding the differences will help your dog pass.
Both systems are a lot of fun. Your breeder will be a big help in this dept.

[admin]

NAVHDA feather drag is about the same as the DKV feather drag. NAVHDA does not have a fur catagory, if you supply fur it will only be dragged as far as the feather drag. In DKV the fur drag is more challenging.
The NAVHDA NA test is more challenging overall than the DKV derby - I would do the NA test if possible. The NAVHDA UT is a finished dog test which can be done at any age, the DKV solms is still a natural ability test - making it a more challenging test of trainer and dog - this test has age limitations.
As mentioned, there are differences between the two systems, if your goal is DKV, understanding the differences will help your dog pass.
Both systems are a lot of fun. Your breeder will be a big help in this dept.


Francine,
Our Solms is closer to finished dog then Natural ability, the Natural ability’s HAS to be judged, but to pass the dog thru the breed test has to be very close to the complete dog for the NAVHA standard.
In NAVDA you will not fall the test if you call the dog when he retrieves ,In Solms you go home, In SOLMS is judged much, much harder the any NAVHA dog at the age of 13-19 months old, JMO

[pixie bee]

I see the NAVHDA UT as mostly an obedience test and solms as mostly a natural ability test. Solms is more challenging and I prefer to see a prized solms/AZP dog over a prized UT dog,age being an important factor in the 2 systems.
I think obedience makes a finished dog.
Solms represents a young, well rounded versatile hunting dog.

[Manny]

I see the NAVHDA UT as mostly an obedience test and solms as mostly a natural ability test. Solms is more challenging and I prefer to see a prized solms/AZP dog over a prized UT dog,age being an important factor in the 2 systems.
I think obedience makes a finished dog.
Solms represents a young, well rounded versatile hunting dog.

Francine whatever you just post it 's correct from 4 years a go, but not any more,
The new JGHV/DKV rules start 3 years a go IMO they require way more obedience and cooperation at Solms/AZP,
I can tell you if I run UT to day both of my dogs will prize, they're steady to point flush,shot, fall, they retrieve to hand when I command, they duck such and if they find the duck to fast I can re send them again and again with a single command, I can put them on the down and stay walk a way fire 5 shots and they never even pick their heads up to look at my way,
so what is so hard, they very close if not the same IMO,

The only deferents I see is our dogs are very young dogs compare to most NAVHDA UT dogs, I had allot long time (20-30) years NAVHDA members say the Solms is harder test do to the age of the dog and all the requirements and expectations by the dog.
know how many UT Dogs you see at the age of 14-20 months? very few on the other had at list 80-90 % of the DKs will prize on Solms.

Do we have a beter dog? IMO I think much better.......at least the testing record looks this way

Manny

[pixie bee]

You have to remember one thing Manny- you train with VGP in mind.
If you train just for solms your dog will not be prepared for UT.

Francine

[Manny]

You have to remember one thing Manny- you train with VGP in mind.
If you train just for solms your dog will not be prepared for UT.

Francine

Yes, but what I say the two test Solms and UT are very close and our dogs are capable to do the job as well if not better and learn faster,

do you know how many NAVHDA trainers I know they start with the UT in mine and can even get their at this age? Allot!!!!

Take care
Manny

[pixie bee]

It is challenging to get a young dog to cooperate enough and to be bred to handle the pressures of solms.

A dog has to want to do the work.

[Manny]

It is challenging to get a young dog to cooperate enough and to be bred to handle the pressures of solms.

A dog has to want to do the work.

Not just challenging, but VERY. especially if is only 13-14 months old, some times we ask too much from our dogs

Manny

[Manny]

It is challenging to get a young dog to cooperate enough and to be bred to handle the pressures of solms.

A dog has to want to do the work.

Not just challenging, but VERY. especially if is only 13-14 months old, some times we ask too much from our dogs

Manny

[dvining]

I think that a NAVHDA UT test is stricter than a Solms test when it comes to the field work because in NAVHDA the dog has to be steady until sent and then has to make a flawless retrieve in order to get a prz 1. The solms test the dog only has to be steady to flush and isn't even asked to retrieve a bird. When it comes to the water part of the tests the NAVHDA duck search is a little more challenging because the ducks are placed on the other side of the water so your dog has to actually be able to expand out and search for the duck without sent where in the solms the duck is sent from the same area as the dog which puts sent on the water and helps draw the dog out but on the other hand if your dog can't track a duck on water and crosses the sent without acknowledging your going to get hit on nose where in NAVHDA you don't have to worry about that. But I would think that a 13-18 month old dog would have a hard time passing a UT test with a prz 1. But on the other hand that if your dog is able to pass either test at a young age your going to have a very nice hunting dog for the fall and we all have our opinions and could sit her and argue over which test is harder and could make a case for both test. The thing that helps NAVHDA is they have training days and in the NADKC it's tougher to be able get people together and put training days on in which I think training days would really help get more people interested in the NADKC and help the club grow

[don wiggins]

Please understand when I started this thread that my intention was not to imply that one clubs test were better/harder than another clubs. Thank you for your many replies but as new as I am to the versitile breeds your debates/discussions are going over my head anyway as most of the time I have no idea what you are refering to. I am confident however that that will change shortly as I become involved in the process.

The thing that helps NAVHDA is they have training days and in the NADKC it's tougher to be able get people together and put training days on in which I think training days would really help get more people interested in the NADKC and help the club grow

This is the thought that I entered into this thread with. The Oklahoma NAVHDA Club has a club training day once a month. I haven't attended one yet, but assume it to be like the retriever club that I have attended many training days. That is to say that it is set up like a test, and there are other more experienced members there to explain & make suggestions to make the end goal more easily obtainable.

If there were no NADKC members within several hundred miles of you and you had never trained a versitile dog of any breed, how would you proceed if your end goal was to test a DK?

Thank you,
Don

[admin]

When it comes to the water part of the tests the NAVHDA duck search is a little more challenging because the ducks are placed on the other side of the water so your dog has to actually be able to expand out and search for the duck without sent

Dan
Your statements is not correct, Avery NAVHDA judge will release the duck different, and I have seen many do it just like Solms, all it depended the way the water is layout

The thing that helps NAVHDA is they have training days..
The training days help when you have many members nearby, not 150 ml away, but the one think which helps NAVHDA allot IMO is they can test 8 deferens breeds and you can run your dog 20 times to get prize and we only can do it with 2 try’s per test, and we can only test DK's no other breeds

Just few of my thouts and opinions
Manny

[George D]

If there were no NADKC members within several hundred miles of you and you had never trained a versitile dog of any breed, how would you proceed if your end goal was to test a DK?

Thank you,
Don

Don
Learn as much as you can about the German testing system and NAVHDA. They are not mutually exclusive as you can test in both and benefit from the cross training. The tests are similar but you should try and get to a NAVHDA test and a DK or JGHV test to see where the differences lie.

As far as the German System goes, one option you have in Oklahoma is hooking up with the Deutsch Drahthaar guys. There are several DD breeders in Oklahoma and I'm sure you would find some training opportunities with them. There is an HZP in Bixby in November with the Big Rivers Chapter of the VDD-GNA that you may want to check out if it is in your area. Your DK is eligible to test with this group as the umbrella organization for both groups is the same (JGHV). If you join the chapter, you can attend their training days as well as the NAVHDA training days you already know about.



hth, George

[dvining]

I've only been running dogs in NAVHDA for a 4 or 5 years and all the test that I've helped or ran dogs in the judges always place the ducks on the other side even if they have to use a boat and I'm sure it help that we have really good water around here which makes it easier for them to place the duck on the other side. That's why I thought that the NAVHDA duck search was more challenging for a dog because there's no sent to help draw the dog out and I've seen dogs not want to expand there search and cover all the areas of the pond. I think if you have a dog that passes either of the 2 tests with a prz 1 you'll have a great hunting dog and if you can test in both clubs your dog is only going to get better I'm not trying to say one is better than the other I just thought that from what I've seen that a UT1 dog is going to require more steadiness and obedience than a solms there both great test.
Yes it's very unfortunate that our club is so spread out and makes it hard to put on training days. I think that it's harder for the NADKC to grow when new members or people can't get together and learn what needs to be trained for so they can run there dog in the solms or VGP . Most people hear what is required from a dog to pass one of these test and get discouraged before they get started especially if they have nobody to ask question or explain how to start training. That's what I think has helped NAVHDA grow and become such a big club.

[pixie bee]

Because NAVHDA is diversified in its breeds it is easier to gain members and gather folks for training days.
I think most people are intimidated by solms, wrongly. You can force fetch a young DK w/o the fear of ruining the dog.
(otherwise my dogs would be ruined :D)
DKs are a lot of dog. I find them to be calm in a non hunting environment,tho.
Maybe more people want a lesser dog? I can't see why. A pup capable of hunting its first season,practically out of the whelping box, who is versatile, with a dynomite nose and tons of desire and cooperation - I don't see why hunters and testers would look elsewhere.


Francine

[admin]

I've only been running dogs in NAVHDA for a 4 or 5 years and all the test that I've helped or ran dogs in the judges always place the ducks on the other side even if they have to use a boat and I'm sure it help that we have really good water around here which makes it easier for them to place the duck on the other side. That's why I thought that the NAVHDA duck search was more challenging for a dog because there's no sent to help draw the dog out and I've seen dogs not want to expand there search and cover all the areas of the pond. .

Again Dan,
If teach your dog to go to the other side you are not going to have any problems, this is way I all ways teach and train the OVER, start from 5-10 yards all the way to about 60-70, on the other hand the duck has to be placed with in a gun ranch 30- 40 yards not 60-70 yards a way, we're testing hunting scenarios, not how good the trainer is :) I hope this makes some sense to you, the whole Idea IMO for the duck search is, you want to see the dogs desire to search for the duck and track the duck sent on water not how far the dog can go to fine the duck.

How many UT dogs have you run?

Manny

[pixie bee]

Is it mandatory for a solms dog to find the duck in search behind the duck?

I think it is.

Francine

[Manny]

Is it mandatory for a solms dog to find the duck in search behind the duck?

I think it is.

Francine

No Francine, It dos not have to find the duck,but we like to she the dog track the sent of the duck,
If this is the case. A duck will be throng in by the judge for the dog to complete the retrieve

Manny

[pixie bee]

OK - so it's the retrieve that's mandatory?

Here's a scenario:

The duck was released and swam to the left, the dog is released, kind of goes left, but some scent brings the dog away from the duck - the dog is doing a intense and focused search at a decent distance from the handler and not showing dependence, but not going toward the duck.
How is the judged?

[Manny]

OK - so it's the retrieve that's mandatory?

Here's a scenario:

The duck was released and swam to the left, the dog is released, kind of goes left, but some scent brings the dog away from the duck - the dog is doing a intense and focused search at a decent distance from the handler and not showing dependence, but not going toward the duck.
How is the judged?

If the dog does intense search and cover good amount of water I don't see why not get 4
now if the dog crosses the duck trail few times and does not fallow the track I will put ? in the nose, and according the rest of the test I will mark the proper score

Just My Opinion, but you have to see the scenario to explain better.

Manny

[don wiggins]

I had the privilege of attending my first versatile dog training day with the Oklahoma NAVHDA club. First let me me say that it is a lot different than the retriever club training sessions that I have participated in so many times. Everyone seemed to go off and pretty much train by themselves, and I can now see how that is possible. In their defense, they were all seasoned trainers, there were no new/inexperienced guys there except me and I wasn't training a dog and several of them were tuning up for a test in Iowa this week and their clubs test in a few weeks. They did ask me if I had any questions and my host spent a lot of time explaining the different things that were going on.
In my retriever experience, there are several people in the field to throw "marks" or as live gunners for the one that is running their dog. Then everyone basically takes turns running the same test scenerio maybe as three singles for the less experienced dogs or as one triple for the more experienced.
It did take me a while to wrap my head around the duck search. I kept thinking that the dog was not taking a very good line or was having difficulties locating the bird. Then I would remember, oh yeah, they weren't sent on a line for a blind and they are supposed to be doing a search.
As I continue to read and educate myself I know that I will learn the differences of the NADKC tests and the NAVHDA tests but it does seem that it would be very possible to do both. I have also found that their are GSPs running in the HRC (Hunting Retriever Club) tests so who knows there may be a DK in my future for sure.

[pixie bee]

This may be an over simplification....

retrievers are sight trained
Trained to take direction

pointers are scent trained
bred to be more independent - searchers


Francine

[don wiggins]

I sent off a deposit for a new pup from the H litter of von Kings Crossing Kennel born on Christmas Eve. I can't wait. Can someone direct me to a calendar that lists the DK tests & locations. I know that I've seen it before but I've looked all over the NADKC website and I can't find it. With a Dec. 24th birthday, when will I participate in Derby and Solms?
Don

[Manny]

I sent off a deposit for a new pup from the H litter of von Kings Crossing Kennel born on Christmas Eve. I can't wait. Can someone direct me to a calendar that lists the DK tests & locations. I know that I've seen it before but I've looked all over the NADKC website and I can't find it. With a Dec. 24th birthday, when will I participate in Derby and Solms?
Don

Don Hi

Ones you become a member of NADKC you will receive a the user name and password then you can see all the test dates In the members area

Manny

[jmr12]

Don
Congratulations on the new pup.
Manny
Why do you have to be a member to check test dates and locations?
Is there another way to find them?

[Manny]

As far as I know this is the only way. For club Members only


Manny

[don wiggins]

I will be joining the NADKC so thats not a big deal, but what if I was interested in a DK and just wanted to attend a test to see what it was all about before deciding on the breed.

What about the second part of the question? I know that dogs progress diferently, but just as an average.


With a Dec. 24th birthday, when will I participate in Derby and Solms?
Don

[Manny]

I will be joining the NADKC so thats not a big deal, but what if I was interested in a DK and just wanted to attend a test to see what it was all about before deciding on the breed.

What about the second part of the question? I know that dogs progress diferently, but just as an average.

If your dog is born on Dec 24-2010 you have to run Derby and Solms in year 2012,

Your breeder should be able to help you with all the test dates, he maybe hold a test and you don't have to travel as far.


Manny

[don wiggins]

If your dog is born on Dec 24-2010 you have to run Derby and Solms in year 2012,

Your breeder should be able to help you with all the test dates, he maybe hold a test and you don't have to travel as far.


Manny

Thank you Manny,
Don